[146874] in cryptography@c2.net mail archive
Re: [Cryptography] In the face of "cooperative" end-points,
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (james hughes)
Sun Sep 8 23:53:06 2013
X-Original-To: cryptography@metzdowd.com
In-reply-to: <585B8075-A2B8-4D12-80E4-45C21F8C3D71@lrw.com>
From: james hughes <hughejp@mac.com>
Date: Sun, 08 Sep 2013 20:45:32 -0700
To: Jerry Leichter <leichter@lrw.com>
Cc: "Marcus D. Leech" <mleech@ripnet.com>,
"cryptography@metzdowd.com" <cryptography@metzdowd.com>
Errors-To: cryptography-bounces+crypto.discuss=bloom-picayune.mit.edu@metzdowd.com
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On Sep 8, 2013, at 1:47 PM, Jerry Leichter <leichter@lrw.com> wrote:
> On Sep 8, 2013, at 3:51 PM, Perry E. Metzger wrote:
>>=20
>> In summary, it would appear that the most viable solution is to make
>> the end-to-end encryption endpoint a piece of hardware the user owns
>> (say the oft mentioned $50 Raspberry Pi class machine on their home
>> net) and let the user interact with it over an encrypted connection
>> (say running a normal protocol like Jabber client to server
>> protocol over TLS, or IMAP over TLS, or https: and a web client.)
>>=20
>> It is a compromise, but one that fits with the usage pattern almost
>> everyone has gotten used to. It cannot be done with the existing
>> cloud model, though -- the user needs to own the box or we can't
>> simultaneously maintain current protocols (and thus current clients)
>> and current usage patterns.
> I don't see how it's possible to make any real progress within the existin=
g cloud model, so I'm with you 100% here. (I've said the same earlier.)
Could cloud computing be a red herring? Banks and phone companies all give u=
p personal information to governments (Verizon?) and have been doing this lo=
ng before and long after cloud computing was a fad. Transport encryption (re=
gardless of its security) is no solution either.=20
The fact is, to do business, education, health care, you need to share sensi=
tive information. There is no technical solution to this problem. Shared dat=
a is shared data. This is arguably the same as the analogue gap between cont=
ent protected media and your eyes and ears. Encryption is not a solution whe=
n the data needs to be shared with the other party in the clear.=20
I knew a guy one that quipped "link encryptors are iron pipes rats run throu=
gh".=20
If compromised end points are your threat model, cloud computing is not your=
problem.=20
The only solution is the Ted Kazinski technology rejection principal (as lon=
g as you also kill your brother).
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto"><span style=3D"-webkit-text-size-adjust: au=
to; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);"><br><br>On Sep 8, 2013, at 1:=
47 PM, Jerry Leichter <<a href=3D"mailto:leichter@lrw.com" x-apple-data-d=
etectors=3D"true" x-apple-data-detectors-type=3D"link" x-apple-data-detector=
s-result=3D"1">leichter@lrw.com</a>> wrote:<br><br></span><blockquote typ=
e=3D"cite"><font color=3D"#000000"><span style=3D"-webkit-text-size-adjust: a=
uto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">On Sep 8, 2013, at 3:51 PM, P=
erry E. Metzger wrote:</span></font></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><=
blockquote type=3D"cite"><font color=3D"#000000"><span style=3D"-webkit-text=
-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);"><br></span></=
font></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D=
"cite"><font color=3D"#000000"><span style=3D"-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto=
; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">In summary, it would appear tha=
t the most viable solution is to make<br></span></font></blockquote></blockq=
uote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><font color=3D"#000=
000"><span style=3D"-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(2=
55, 255, 255, 0);">the end-to-end encryption endpoint a piece of hardware th=
e user owns<br></span></font></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"c=
ite"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><font color=3D"#000000"><span style=3D"-webki=
t-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">(say th=
e oft mentioned $50 Raspberry Pi class machine on their home<br></span></fon=
t></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"ci=
te"><font color=3D"#000000"><span style=3D"-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; b=
ackground-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">net) and let the user interact wit=
h it over an encrypted connection<br></span></font></blockquote></blockquote=
><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><font color=3D"#000000"=
><span style=3D"-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 2=
55, 255, 0);">(say running a normal protocol like Jabber client to server<br=
></span></font></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquo=
te type=3D"cite"><font color=3D"#000000"><span style=3D"-webkit-text-size-ad=
just: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">protocol over TLS, or=
IMAP over TLS, or https: and a web client.)<br></span></font></blockquote><=
/blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><font color=3D=
"#000000"><span style=3D"-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: r=
gba(255, 255, 255, 0);"><br></span></font></blockquote></blockquote><blockqu=
ote type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><font color=3D"#000000"><span st=
yle=3D"-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255,=
0);">It is a compromise, but one that fits with the usage pattern almost<br=
></span></font></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquo=
te type=3D"cite"><font color=3D"#000000"><span style=3D"-webkit-text-size-ad=
just: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">everyone has gotten u=
sed to. It cannot be done with the existing<br></span></font></blockquote></=
blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><font color=3D=
"#000000"><span style=3D"-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: r=
gba(255, 255, 255, 0);">cloud model, though -- the user needs to own the box=
or we can't<br></span></font></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"=
cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><font color=3D"#000000"><span style=3D"-webk=
it-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">simult=
aneously maintain current protocols (and thus current clients)<br></span></f=
ont></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"=
cite"><font color=3D"#000000"><span style=3D"-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto;=
background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">and current usage patterns.</spa=
n></font></blockquote></blockquote><span style=3D"-webkit-text-size-adjust: a=
uto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);"><br></span><blockquote type=3D=
"cite"><font color=3D"#000000"><span style=3D"-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto=
; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">I don't see how it's possible t=
o make any real progress within the existing cloud model, so I'm with you 10=
0% here. (I've said the same earlier.)</span></font></blockquote><span=
style=3D"-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 2=
55, 0);"><br>Could cloud computing be a red herring? Banks and phone compani=
es all give up personal information to governments (Verizon?) and have been d=
oing this long before and long after cloud computing was a fad. Transpo=
rt encryption (regardless of its security) is no solution either. <br><=
br>The fact is, to do business, education, health care, you need to share se=
nsitive information. There is no technical solution to this problem. Shared d=
ata is shared data. This is arguably the same as the analogue gap between co=
ntent protected media and your eyes and ears. Encryption is not a solution w=
hen the data needs to be shared with the other party in the clear. <br>=
<br>I knew a guy one that quipped "link encryptors are iron pipes rats run t=
hrough". <br><br>If compromised end points are your threat model, cloud=
computing is not your problem. </span><div><span style=3D"-webkit-text=
-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);"><br></span></=
div><div><span style=3D"-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rg=
ba(255, 255, 255, 0);">The only solution is the Ted Kazinski technology reje=
ction principal (as long as you also kill your brother).<br><br><br></span><=
span style=3D"-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.292969); -webk=
it-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-compositio=
n-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469); -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto;=
"></span><br style=3D"-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.296875=
); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-co=
mposition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469); "></div></body></html>=
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