[15483] in APO-L
Re: "Itallion Stallion"
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (The Italian Stallion)
Tue Nov 12 09:19:54 1996
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 08:18:09 -0600
Reply-To: The Italian Stallion <librimd@MAIL.AUBURN.EDU>
From: The Italian Stallion <librimd@MAIL.AUBURN.EDU>
To: Multiple recipients of list APO-L <APO-L@VM.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
In-Reply-To: <Pine.PMDF.3.91.961112042505.684485I-100000@DELTA.IS.TCU.EDU>
This was a very insulting letter that hurt alot of people. The only
reason that I'm responding is to try and clear the air so that we can get
back to an orderly discussion.
> Very nice, I'm sure, but I'm also sure that its just not quite
> the same as being in Alpha Phi Omega itself.
Of course it's not the same, or else there'd be no reason for it to
exist! It's not better or worse, simply different. OphiA is an
excellent organization, and compliments APhiO (allmale chapters, that
is) very well.
> I find that terminology to be somewhat, no, not somewhat, but
> VERY diminutive.
Well, none of the little sisters do. They're proud of it, in fact.
> Sounds like you oly want them around so as to be "groupies" or
> little helpers or something. Granted though, I am an outsider to your
> chapter and don't know how things actually work at Delta.
No.......they organize their own projects, help with the pledge class
(each pledge has a Big Sis that keeps her identity a secret until he
initiates), and assist brothers in daily workings within the chapter
(running the BX, organizing formals, etc...)
> THEY CAN EXPRESS THEIR OPINIONS!!!!
Yes.
> What were you thinking?
That if I didn't mention that, people might think that they're ideas
and opinions are ignored.
> They'll only get in the way, I mean, they're ONLY women: what opinions
> could they have that are worth listening to?!?!
You aren't making sense. I've told you that our little sisters are
invaluable to this chapter; why do you want to make it sound like their
little nothings?
> The above was, in case you misunderstood, very, very, very
> sarcastic. Well, Delta, it is very encouraging to see that ya'll have
> advanced so far as to extend the Freedom of Speech to include women, if
> not suffrage itself. (again, slightly sarcastic)
The LS's are VERY proud of their organization. They don't want to be
brothers. Insulting what they are is cruel and insensititve. They work
hard, and deserve far more than what you are giving them.
> Oh, Yeah!! Well MY mom's a bookkeeper and my best friend is a
> lawyer, so I don't wanna hear any Accountant or Lawyer jokes outa ya, or
> I'll come over there and pound ya!
That was humor. Please consider it as such. I was hoping to, in a
humorous way, display my personal connection with the little sisters
programs, hoping that y'all would realize how much I value it.
> Oh, please, Stallone-wanna-be-boy, there are a few rules of
> debate that either you will learn and apply, or you will simply go down
> in a overload of email flames:
I'm not a Stallone wannabe, I just like the callname "Italian
Stallion". It lets people know I'm Italian, that I'm proud of it, and
that I saw 'Rocky'. :)
> 1) Learn to disagree without being disagreeable. I myself
> sometimes border on the edge of this one, but I also always include
> several caveats so people will realize that I don't mean to be insulting
> to anyone personally, I just have strong feelings about the topic. You
> must learn to argue rationally and respect everyone's right to an opinion.
I believe that, for the majority of this conversation, I've been quite
civil. When I screw up, I'm corredted, and I try not to do it again. I
have yet to tear apart another organization, however. You've attempted
to quite nicely.
> Did it insult any of your little sisters? no.
No, you insulted all of them equally.
> Did I insult you or your brothers? Well, yes, I did, and I
> apologize for that, but it is difficult to argue against a decision (
> in this case to remain all-male) without insulting those who made the
> decision or those who defend it. Now, how is it that I insulted you? I
> believe I called you chauvinistic.
So I'm chauvanistic? Fine, I can deal with this insult. I've heard
worse in my life. If its difficult for you to argue a point without
insulting others outright, well, isn't their something wrong there? I
know some people don't agree with what I've said, but I try very hard to
keep in mind that people don't deserve to be insulted directly.
> in kinder words: I don't agree with you. I think saying, "You want a
> service fraternity? Join OPA." is a crock.
Well, that's your right to think that. Of course, OPhiA might be a
little upset about that phrase.....
> I believe it is wrong to say "You aren't good enough to do service with us."
We have NEVER, I repeat NEVER turned ANYONE away that was willing to
serve. Just because we don't make them brothers doesn't mean we think
less of them.
> And that is what you are saying when you tell a women she can't
> be your brother; go join Omega Phi Alpha -- that she isn't good enough.
Again, does OPhiA really deserve this kind of insult? Do you know any
OPhiA's?
> Oh, yeah, I heard what yousaid: your "little" sisters do service with
> you and "help" achieve your endeavours,
Why write "help"? Do you think that what they do is less valuable than
what the brothers do?
> So, they are good enough to join you on a service project -- why
> aren't they good enough to be your brother FULLY.
No, they simply don't have the right criteria to be a brother of an
AllMale chapter.
> Read your ritual book, doesn't it say that Service is supreme in
> one of the ceremonies?
Yes it does.
> So, women are good enough to join you for that which is most
> supreme to our fraternity. Why aren't they good enough to join you
> fully, as brothers?????
This is not a good/bad issue. I've never said that women are good or
bad. The simple fact is that they ARE women, and we ARE AllMale, and we
DO like being the way we are. Good and bad have no place in this part
of the conversation.
> So, you want to be selective? Fine go join SAE, or Fiji, or Kappa
> Sig, or Sig Ep, any of the others. I don't think selectivity of
> membership for things like sex, race, or even simply personality has any
> place in APO.
You don't think sex (which is what this subject is about), race (which
has nothing to do with this subject, we are NOT racists) or personality
(which I think MUST be considered. What if you have someone trying to get
in that only wants to initiate so he/she can put "brother of APhiO" on
their resume') have any place in APhiO. Well, then you are in the right
chapter. We, however, do require you to be a male, so obviously we
differ from you in some ways.
> What did I just say??? Yeah, I don't think chapters should vote
> on pledges. At any point. Period.
Again, thats your chapter's right. Again, we differ on this point. Are
you now going to assault our pledge program as well?
> just to re-cap: Mark, I did not mean to offend you, however, you
> have offended me somewhat with the tone of some of your posts. Anything
> harsh I've said was merely to bring your attention to that; I'm sure you
> didn't enjoy those things any more than I did. Please try to be calm in
> your discussion. I realize you care very much about these issues, as do I.
Thank you. I apprectiate your input.
