[15530] in APO-L
Re: "Itallion Stallion" (fwd)
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Michele Costabile Doney)
Tue Nov 12 22:50:42 1996
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 10:47:30 -0500
Reply-To: Michele Costabile Doney <costabil@PILOT.MSU.EDU>
From: Michele Costabile Doney <costabil@PILOT.MSU.EDU>
To: Multiple recipients of list APO-L <APO-L@VM.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
>> > Well, none of the little sisters do. They're proud of it, in fact.
>>
>> Would they not be MORE proud to be full members? And by the definition
of the
>> word, "little" anything IS diminutive.
> No. They prefer where they are. Many of them have said this.
You have said to them specifically, "Would you rather be full-fledged
members of our band?" and they have said "Heck no!"?
> As for the word 'little', if they don't take offense to it, why should
> anyone else?
Hey, I don't mind being called a whop and a dego, nor do I mind blonde
jokes, but some of my fellow blonde Italians do. My father will not
tolerate anyone using the word dego in our household, even if it is directed
toward me and he knows I don't mind. Why? Because he's entitled to his
opinion, and he speaks up for what he thinks is right. I am my father's
daughter.
Certain words can be both positive and negative. The way
> the LS's see it, 'little' is not derogatory.
But then again, they've never known any other way, have they?
>
>> Sounds like they do what the brothers do-- so why not just make them
brothers?
>> THey have obviously proven to you that they make a valuable contribution to
>> the organization.
> Why not make them brothers? Well:
> (1) Because we are an AllMale chapter
Circular reasoning. We're an all-male chapter because we won't allow women
to be brothers. And we don't allow women to be brothers because we're an
all male chapter.
> (2) Because they don't want to be brothers
I wonder how many of them have experience being in a coed fraternity and
seeing what it's like to be offered full membership.
> I don't make it sound like they're little nothings. I'm defending them
> for Pete's sake! I value them as an important assisting group to the
> brothers and pledges. They are very important to this chapter. In fact,
> if they were female brothers rather than little sisters, I think it would
> take away from what makes them special.
What makes them special? Ouch. Any woman worth her salt would rather be a
man's equal than his special little sissypoo.
So you say you value them, and that they're important, and that they do
their own service projects, etc. etc. etc. So basically, they're fulfilling
the role of brothers. How on earth do you manage to keep this precious
male-bonding fraternal ambience in the chapter with them there? If they
disturb it (which they obviously must), why have them there at all? If not,
how on this earth can you justify (not rationalize- JUSTIFY) excluding them?
>> If you are unable to see the parallell, then that's probably what's causing
>> problem. It's bad to exclude people on the basis of race, but perfectly fine
>> to do it on the basis of gender? Is that what you're saying?
> YES! I can't think of a better way to put it.
Oh wow, that is chilling. Absolutely chilling. Do you REALLY stand by that
statement? I don't know that I want to call you my brother. I hope you
never have a job where you supervise women and minorities. The potential
consequences stagger me.
We, as an AllMale
> chapter, wish to stay as we are. That means that we don't want female
> brothers in the chapter. Why? Because that's the way we are, and that's
> the way our chapter works.
So basically, you're happy with your status quo because it serves you, and
you're willing to do anything necessary to rationalize your existence. I see.
> No one in our area has a problem with this.
No one? I doubt that. It may not be vocalized, but you can bet your
testosterone that it's there.
> We have a service sorority
> here to allow equal opertunity in L,F, and S.
Again, "separate but equal" isn't exactly constitutional. Do the women drink
out of different water fountains too, and sit on the back of the bus?
> We are not harming anyone.
Discrimination is harmful and diminishes us all. Several brothers on APO-L
have expressed extreme concern with chapters that discriminate against
women, so I'd say you are doing harm.
> we recognize female brothers from other
> chapters with the dignity and respect they deserve. Why don't we get the
> same?
Because you don't show it to the women at your school. What makes a female
brother from a different school different from a female brother who
transfers to your school? What makes a woman who wants to pledge my chapter
different from a woman who wants to pledge your chapter? They're only
"different" because you define them that way.
This is the last post I'm going to make about this subject because I feel my
ability to be civil about this topic about which I have very strong feelings
slipping away. But before I go, I want to add one more comment which I have
also made privately to people who think the existence of GSS of OPA answers
my question about how sexual segregation promotes leadership, friendship,
and service (it does NOT answer the question at all-- think about it). If
GSS practically begs you not to go co-ed because they'll lose members,
doesn't that tell you how badly many women must want to join APO? Look at
the signs, man, look at the signs!
You can all breathe an immense, collective, testosterone-ridden sigh of
relief now. I won't post again on this topic.
Michele Doney
costabil@pilot.msu.edu
"Gecko.... wasn't he the REALLY quiet Marx brother?" - CH
