[2] in Discussion of MIT-community interests
Re: LIVING WAGE SIT-IN AT HARVARD (fwd)
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (John Hawkinson)
Thu Apr 19 11:15:51 2001
Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 08:02:25 -0400
From: John Hawkinson <jhawk@MIT.EDU>
To: Zhelinrentice L Scott <zlscott@MIT.EDU>
Cc: mit-talk@MIT.EDU
Message-ID: <20010419080224.U1116@multics.mit.edu>
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In-Reply-To: <200104190548.BAA11769@m4-167-8.mit.edu>; from zlscott@MIT.EDU on Thu, Apr 19, 2001 at 01:48:20AM -0400
Resent-From: jhawk@MIT.EDU
Resent-To: mit-talk-mtg@charon.MIT.EDU
Zhe,
You haven't really made an arguments that seem terribly convincing. The
discussion here is not whether Harvard should pay its works a living
wage. I think most people agree that would be nice.
The discussion is whether MIT students should get involved, and
pseudoperipheally, whether this is really an appropriate thing to send
(cold!) to mit-talk.
In order to get people involved in a cause, you need to make it clear
WHY they should get involved, and make it clear that the cause is the right
cause, and that it is justified in doing so. That hasn't been done
here. We don't know what the relvence of this cause is to MIT (it seems
pretty low), we haven't seen good justification that MIT pays a living wage
(and we'd be much more concerned about MIT's actions than Harvard), and we
haven't seen any explanation for just how much this would cost Harvard and
what Harvard would have to give up to do it.
To me, those are clearly things that should be presented before me if I
am being asked to join this cause. If the proponents of it have not done
due-diligence in those ways, then I am extremely disinclined to put forth
any of my resources toward it.
Part of my "bitterness" here is due to what I've seen. For intance,
let's take the case of our Campus Police, who leafletted for a bunch of
days last year over contract disputes they were having with the MIT
administration. This seems a reasonable parallel. A few weeks after they
leafletted, I got around to calling the MIT Manger of Labor Relations who
they had requested people contact about their concerns. Among other things,
I asked him how many calls he had received, and he indicate that he'd
gotten less than a handful. If we can't manage to even clean up our own
back yard, I would suggest we shouldn't be trying to clean up Harvard's.
> Self centered, greedy, selfish, evil, mean, inhumane
Needlessly inflammatory, these words can be applied to most people who say
something that is prima facie unpleasant, regardless of its truth.
> If MIT was hurting for cash because of it, why is President Vest
> putting ALL of the courses online?
MIT is soliciting $100 million for this purpose and does not intend to
spend money from it's operating budget on OpenCourseWare.
> Obviously MIT is doing quite well financially, and I am sure that
> Harvard can do the same.
This is far less than compelling.
> Blue-collar workers are human. They have a right to food, clothes
Undisputed. What is the question is whether we should be involved,
and what the price to pay is.
> Why is it that the PUblic Service Center has such a hard time
> getting volunteers(if the average MIT student is so great)?
They do a pretty poor job of self-promotion.
> Why is that MIT students get all up in arms when someone is about
> to change their living group
Nathan covered this pretty well. Things that locally affect us are
more important.
> *Sits around to bitch about thier "sad" workload, and how broke they
> are when there are other MIT students whose parents collect alumnium
> cans just to make ends meet for their child at MIT. Those are the
> type of people that you claim don't need a "living wage."
No one has claimed a "living wage" is unnecessary. (I'm sure some people
believe that, but no one has advocated it in this forum.)
> It's extremely ironic that ppl have the opinion that these ppl at Harvard
> will cause undue burden on the budget. Especially after the number
> one thing that ppl like about MIT is the people that they meet.
I don't think anyone's established that. But we're not talking about a
small amount of money here. It will have some effect. We'd like to know
what that effect is before advocating it.
All cards on the table--face up, please.
> MIT students are just as elitist, selfish, and prissy as a Harvard
> Student. The major difference is that they don't dress as well.
And thus are the more true and honest for it.
I think there is little to be gained by asserting that we, as people, are
better or worse than Harvard people. We're all just people, and we might as
well be a little more egalitarian and less snooty about it, if we're trying
to have a serious discussion rather than just insult Harvard for the heck
of it.
--jhawk
p.s.: I think we're having an interesting discussion here. This is a good
thing.
