[2024] in Discussion of MIT-community interests
Re: [Mit-talk] [UA-SCATR] New Card initiative
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Ryan Williams)
Fri Jul 7 12:08:33 2006
Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2006 09:07:51 -0700
From: Ryan Williams <breath@alum.mit.edu>
To: grace <gkenney@mit.edu>
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.62L.0607071141100.9920@department-of-alchemy.mit.edu>
Cc: faber@alum.mit.edu, mit-talk@mit.edu, Cathy Zhang <zhangc@mit.edu>
Errors-To: mit-talk-bounces@mit.edu
I concur. Thanks for hitting the nail on the head, Jessica.
The main problem is absolutely the social engineering aspect. It's
repugnant that people in the administration think that it's OK to play
God with student lives. And they do it so ineptly! They manufacture
problems which don't have a lot to do with reality (e.g. the myth of the
isolated student microwaving meals and eating them in solitude), and
then 'solve' them with Gestapo tactics.
That's the message you should take back to the administration: stop
trying to engineer things. This isn't fucking Soviet Russia, and the
road to hell is paved with good intentions.
-RYaN
grace wrote:
>exactly - the problem isn't dining halls themselves. [and of course there
>are plenty of schools where the dining hall is a vital part of the dorm
>culture. however, we're talking about people being forced to eat
>somewhere [or waste the money they were forced to spend on a mealplan] -
>they're not doing it because it's part of their community. for some
>dorms, a dorm dining hall would be an eve worse fit, culture-wise. and
>really - i don't get the impression that dorms with reopened dining halls
>were motivated primarily to do so because they wanted to "improve
>community." conveniently nearby food was probably the main draw for many
>people.
>
>if dining halls were truly just another option, and there were no
>mandatory mealplans or ulterior social engineering motives, i'd have no
>problem with them. but when their existence limits choice, or when
>they're being used to try to change student culture [to make it more like
>other 'normal' schools, natch]... i'm rather less sanguine about the
>increasing attempts to tie dining to residence.
>
>-grace
>
>
>gibbering like hunter thompson on a revolutionary drug, jessiehl@MIT.EDU said:
>
>
>
>>Personally, I wasn't sure whether to be amused or appalled by some of the
>>related McCormick dining hall initatives, like the "Meet New People" table
>>with
>>the "conversation starter" cards to fill out.
>>
>>Jacob, I think the problem is that it's not just an issue of financial
>>feasibility, it's an issue of social engineering. Some people are under the
>>impression that if the students aren't eating together in the dining hall,
>>they're being lonely and antisocial in their rooms, and therefore that it's
>>necessary to make them eat in the dining hall for the sake of community.
>>
>>From the 11/18/05 issue of the Tech:
>>
>>"[McCormick housemaster Charles] Stewart said he has not heard ?a single
>>valid
>>argument? against the no-styrofoam policy. ?If students are in a hurry, they
>>have zillions of options elsewhere on campus.? He said the time that it takes
>>to wait in line for food preparation and checkout and the time walking back
>>up
>>a room is no more than it would take to eat a meal in the hall with the rest
>>of
>>the McCormick community. ?We are trying to create a sense of community
>>here.?
>>
>>Stewart said he would encourage other houses to adopt similar policies. ?The
>>benefits of community dining are so great, and MIT recognizes this.
>>Otherwise,
>>we should close down these expensive dining halls as we cannot justify the
>>cost
>>of them as only being a means of providing food,? he said."
>>
>>- Jessie
>>
>>Quoting Cathy Zhang <zhangc@MIT.EDU>:
>>
>>
>>
>>>Wow...the no-takeout policy seems rather much for me. In Simmons, we're
>>>allowed to take any dining hall food upstairs, even if it's on one of
>>>their plates, as long as we return it (although sometimes people return
>>>plates only after their four years), and we're always allowed the option
>>>of takeout boxes.
>>>
>>>-Cathy
>>>
>>>Jacob Faber wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Jeff,
>>>>I think your point about the fact that a whole community will never
>>>>agree is right on. I loved eating in Baker with my friends, and it
>>>>was a great way to bring the community together. What people are
>>>>upset about is the idea of being forced to eat in your dorm (or
>>>>anywhere for that matter).
>>>>
>>>>Financial feasibility of a dorm-based dining hall is not a stand-alone
>>>>justification for forcing the community to subsidize. Why can't they
>>>>offer good food at a price that will attract enough customers to be
>>>>viable?
>>>>
>>>>I am completely shocked by that "no takeout" policy and am curious as
>>>>to whether or not it is still in effect.
>>>>
>>>>-j
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>On 7/7/06, Steven M Kelch <kelch@mit.edu> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>To add a little to what Jenn said:
>>>>>
>>>>>The "no take-out" rule was put into place by the housemaster, and not by
>>>>>campus dining. I believe that they have started putting takeout trays
>>>>>back
>>>>>in, but someone correct me if I'm wrong.
>>>>>
>>>>>skelch
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>On Fri, 7 Jul 2006, Cathy Zhang wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>Could someone explain what happened at McCormick, about these
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>"take-out
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>options" that were eliminated, etc? I'm in Simmons, so I've heard
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>about
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>dining hall issues, but I've never heard about people not being
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>allowed to
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>eat anywhere other than the dining hall...??
>>>>>>
>>>>>>-Cathy
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Jessica H Lowell wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I don't think many people are opposed to dining halls themselves on
>>>>>>>principle. The problem is that, for both financial feasibility
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>reasons and
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>social
>>>>>>>engineering reasons, dining halls are made mandatory. Of course,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>this is
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>something for incoming freshmen to consider when they're choosing
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>a dorm,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>but
>>>>>>>there are still concerns, and problems. Jeff, you lived in the dorms
>>>>>>>before
>>>>>>>Freshmen on Campus; the problem of FSILG frosh forced to choose
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>between
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>losing
>>>>>>>money on their forced meal plan or losing valuable bonding time
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>with their
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>house didn't exist then to nearly the extent it does now.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>Whenever someone
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>comments on "dining halls", they're also commenting on the typical
>>>>>>>implications
>>>>>>>of dining halls on the MIT campus.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> From what I've heard about the situation in McCormick, from
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>McCormick
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>residents
>>>>>>>and others, Grace's comments about it are pretty on target. I bet
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>that
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>even
>>>>>>>those who originally supported the dining hall there didn't forsee
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>that in
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>the
>>>>>>>future take-out options would be eliminated to force people to eat
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>on site.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>- Jessie
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Quoting Jeff Roberts <thejoker@alum.mit.edu>:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>On 7/3/06, grace <gkenney@mit.edu> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>finally, the reinstitution of dining halls is recent, and it's
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>been more
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>or less a top-down thing [witness attempts in mccormick to _force_
>>>>>>>>>students to eat there.] in general, they haven't been an
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>expression of
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>dorm culture - in places where dining is part of the culture, it's
>>>>>>>>>generally the result of halls and suites having their own
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>kitchens. the
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>imposition of a dining hall [along with a mandatory mealplan for
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>the dorm
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>to ensure that it's actually used] is often a way to limit,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>rather than
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>increase student dining choices.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>I've enjoyed reading this discussion and was going to stay out of it
>>>>>>>>but this comment sort-of struck a nerve. I'd argue that residential
>>>>>>>>dining halls do contribute to culture in a comparable way to
>>>>>>>>hall/suite cooking; I lived in a dorm with an active dining hall and
>>>>>>>>it was an important part of my social experience and a major part of
>>>>>>>>life of the dorm. Maybe most of the people on mit-talk have a
>>>>>>>>different experience with dining -- after all, only 3 (now 4 I
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>guess)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>of the 11 dorms have dining halls -- but I hope you recognize that
>>>>>>>>different dining experiences can contribute to different types of
>>>>>>>>culture in different ways, and they aren't necessarily better or
>>>>>>>>worse.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>I'd guess that a lot of alums and students feel the same way I
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>do, but
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>you're more likely to hear from those who feel that dining halls are
>>>>>>>>bad (i.e. people who just don't like the food, or the atmosphere, or
>>>>>>>>whatever else about it) or the system is unfair (i.e. FSILGs and
>>>>>>>>people who pay the dining hall fee but don't use the dining hall
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>that
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>much).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Having heard the same arguments over and over again, I've come to
>>>>>>>>think that the persistent problem plaguing campus dining is that
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>when
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>it comes to food, everyone has different preferences and no one
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>system
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>is going to satisfy everyone, and yet if it doesn't satisfy
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>everyone,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>people will complain. People like to cook meals or buy them
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>prepared,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>eat alone or in groups, sit down and have a meal or grab
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>something on
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>their way to lab. That's not even getting into actual food
>>>>>>>>preferences. Just about every dining facility I've ever seen on any
>>>>>>>>campus has been panned for having terrible food, and yet there are
>>>>>>>>always some people who will eat there all the time. People are
>>>>>>>>probably more selective when it comes to food than almost anything
>>>>>>>>else. Unlike restaurants, that can cater to different tastes,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>campus
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>dining tends to aim towards the lowest common demonimator. As a
>>>>>>>>result, hardly anyone is bound to praise it, while those who aren't
>>>>>>>>satisfied will be compelled to complain. You could always try to
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>make
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>it better by providing more options, but the more you do that the
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>more
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>you have to pay, and where does the money come from? (answer:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>usually
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>it comes out of students' pockets, one way or another, until someone
>>>>>>>>comes up with a better option ...)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>I doubt any of this was helpful but maybe it provided some food for
>>>>>>>>thought. Ha! Get it? Ughh.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Jeff (who realizes that I need a "non pretentious" filter more
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>than anyone
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>...)
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>>>>>>>>http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/mit-talk
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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>>
>>
>>
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