[2038] in Discussion of MIT-community interests
Re: [Mit-talk] [UA-SCATR] New Card initiative
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Jessica H Lowell)
Sat Jul 8 05:11:00 2006
Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2006 05:10:43 -0400
From: Jessica H Lowell <jessiehl@mit.edu>
To: Ryan Williams <breath@alum.mit.edu>
In-Reply-To: <44AE86D7.9070804@alum.mit.edu>
Cc: Cathy Zhang <zhangc@mit.edu>, faber@alum.mit.edu, mit-talk@mit.edu,
grace <gkenney@mit.edu>
Errors-To: mit-talk-bounces@mit.edu
I have to say, I was amused by this quote from the Tech:
"Asked whether he thinks the Dining Dollars plan primarily addresses the
concerns of parents or students, Berlin said ?I don?t know.?"
And this one was rather telling:
"Berlin said that feedback from the parents of prospective students,
particularly from Campus Preview Weekend, was one of the main factors behind
the decision to create a food-only account. He cited confusion about the
TechCASH program from many parents as well as a concern that students
might not
have enough money for food after purchasing books and other necessities
because
they do not know how to manage a budget."
I'm genuinely curious; has any current or former student on this list ever run
out of food money because they spent too much TechCash on non-food? Or known
anyone who did?
- Jessie
Quoting Ryan Williams <breath@alum.mit.edu>:
> I concur. Thanks for hitting the nail on the head, Jessica.
>
> The main problem is absolutely the social engineering aspect. It's
> repugnant that people in the administration think that it's OK to
> play God with student lives. And they do it so ineptly! They
> manufacture problems which don't have a lot to do with reality (e.g.
> the myth of the isolated student microwaving meals and eating them in
> solitude), and then 'solve' them with Gestapo tactics.
>
> That's the message you should take back to the administration: stop
> trying to engineer things. This isn't fucking Soviet Russia, and the
> road to hell is paved with good intentions.
>
> -RYaN
>
> grace wrote:
>
>> exactly - the problem isn't dining halls themselves. [and of course there
>> are plenty of schools where the dining hall is a vital part of the dorm
>> culture. however, we're talking about people being forced to eat
>> somewhere [or waste the money they were forced to spend on a
>> mealplan] - they're not doing it because it's part of their
>> community. for some dorms, a dorm dining hall would be an eve worse
>> fit, culture-wise. and really - i don't get the impression that
>> dorms with reopened dining halls were motivated primarily to do so
>> because they wanted to "improve community." conveniently nearby
>> food was probably the main draw for many people.
>>
>> if dining halls were truly just another option, and there were no
>> mandatory mealplans or ulterior social engineering motives, i'd have
>> no problem with them. but when their existence limits choice, or
>> when they're being used to try to change student culture [to make it
>> more like other 'normal' schools, natch]... i'm rather less sanguine
>> about the increasing attempts to tie dining to residence.
>>
>> -grace
>>
>>
>> gibbering like hunter thompson on a revolutionary drug,
>> jessiehl@MIT.EDU said:
>>
>>
>>> Personally, I wasn't sure whether to be amused or appalled by some of the
>>> related McCormick dining hall initatives, like the "Meet New
>>> People" table with
>>> the "conversation starter" cards to fill out.
>>>
>>> Jacob, I think the problem is that it's not just an issue of financial
>>> feasibility, it's an issue of social engineering. Some people are
>>> under the
>>> impression that if the students aren't eating together in the dining hall,
>>> they're being lonely and antisocial in their rooms, and therefore that it's
>>> necessary to make them eat in the dining hall for the sake of community.
>>>
>>> From the 11/18/05 issue of the Tech:
>>>
>>> "[McCormick housemaster Charles] Stewart said he has not heard ?a
>>> single valid
>>> argument? against the no-styrofoam policy. ?If students are in a
>>> hurry, they
>>> have zillions of options elsewhere on campus.? He said the time
>>> that it takes
>>> to wait in line for food preparation and checkout and the time
>>> walking back up
>>> a room is no more than it would take to eat a meal in the hall with
>>> the rest of
>>> the McCormick community. ?We are trying to create a sense of community
>>> here.?
>>>
>>> Stewart said he would encourage other houses to adopt similar
>>> policies. ?The
>>> benefits of community dining are so great, and MIT recognizes this.
>>> Otherwise,
>>> we should close down these expensive dining halls as we cannot
>>> justify the cost
>>> of them as only being a means of providing food,? he said."
>>>
>>> - Jessie
>>>
>>> Quoting Cathy Zhang <zhangc@MIT.EDU>:
>>>
>>>
>>>> Wow...the no-takeout policy seems rather much for me. In Simmons, we're
>>>> allowed to take any dining hall food upstairs, even if it's on one of
>>>> their plates, as long as we return it (although sometimes people return
>>>> plates only after their four years), and we're always allowed the option
>>>> of takeout boxes.
>>>>
>>>> -Cathy
>>>>
>>>> Jacob Faber wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Jeff,
>>>>> I think your point about the fact that a whole community will never
>>>>> agree is right on. I loved eating in Baker with my friends, and it
>>>>> was a great way to bring the community together. What people are
>>>>> upset about is the idea of being forced to eat in your dorm (or
>>>>> anywhere for that matter).
>>>>>
>>>>> Financial feasibility of a dorm-based dining hall is not a stand-alone
>>>>> justification for forcing the community to subsidize. Why can't they
>>>>> offer good food at a price that will attract enough customers to be
>>>>> viable?
>>>>>
>>>>> I am completely shocked by that "no takeout" policy and am curious as
>>>>> to whether or not it is still in effect.
>>>>>
>>>>> -j
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 7/7/06, Steven M Kelch <kelch@mit.edu> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> To add a little to what Jenn said:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The "no take-out" rule was put into place by the housemaster, and not by
>>>>>> campus dining. I believe that they have started putting takeout trays
>>>>>> back
>>>>>> in, but someone correct me if I'm wrong.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> skelch
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Fri, 7 Jul 2006, Cathy Zhang wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Could someone explain what happened at McCormick, about these
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> "take-out
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> options" that were eliminated, etc? I'm in Simmons, so I've heard
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> about
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> dining hall issues, but I've never heard about people not being
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> allowed to
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> eat anywhere other than the dining hall...??
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -Cathy
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Jessica H Lowell wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I don't think many people are opposed to dining halls themselves on
>>>>>>>> principle. The problem is that, for both financial feasibility
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> reasons and
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> social
>>>>>>>> engineering reasons, dining halls are made mandatory. Of course,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> this is
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> something for incoming freshmen to consider when they're choosing
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> a dorm,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>> there are still concerns, and problems. Jeff, you lived in the dorms
>>>>>>>> before
>>>>>>>> Freshmen on Campus; the problem of FSILG frosh forced to choose
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> between
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> losing
>>>>>>>> money on their forced meal plan or losing valuable bonding time
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> with their
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> house didn't exist then to nearly the extent it does now.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Whenever someone
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> comments on "dining halls", they're also commenting on the typical
>>>>>>>> implications
>>>>>>>> of dining halls on the MIT campus.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> From what I've heard about the situation in McCormick, from
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> McCormick
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> residents
>>>>>>>> and others, Grace's comments about it are pretty on target. I bet
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> that
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> even
>>>>>>>> those who originally supported the dining hall there didn't forsee
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> that in
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> future take-out options would be eliminated to force people to eat
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> on site.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> - Jessie
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Quoting Jeff Roberts <thejoker@alum.mit.edu>:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 7/3/06, grace <gkenney@mit.edu> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> finally, the reinstitution of dining halls is recent, and it's
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> been more
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> or less a top-down thing [witness attempts in mccormick to _force_
>>>>>>>>>> students to eat there.] in general, they haven't been an
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> expression of
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> dorm culture - in places where dining is part of the culture, it's
>>>>>>>>>> generally the result of halls and suites having their own
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> kitchens. the
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> imposition of a dining hall [along with a mandatory mealplan for
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> the dorm
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> to ensure that it's actually used] is often a way to limit,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> rather than
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> increase student dining choices.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I've enjoyed reading this discussion and was going to stay out of it
>>>>>>>>> but this comment sort-of struck a nerve. I'd argue that residential
>>>>>>>>> dining halls do contribute to culture in a comparable way to
>>>>>>>>> hall/suite cooking; I lived in a dorm with an active dining hall and
>>>>>>>>> it was an important part of my social experience and a major part of
>>>>>>>>> life of the dorm. Maybe most of the people on mit-talk have a
>>>>>>>>> different experience with dining -- after all, only 3 (now 4 I
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> guess)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> of the 11 dorms have dining halls -- but I hope you recognize that
>>>>>>>>> different dining experiences can contribute to different types of
>>>>>>>>> culture in different ways, and they aren't necessarily better or
>>>>>>>>> worse.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I'd guess that a lot of alums and students feel the same way I
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> do, but
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> you're more likely to hear from those who feel that dining halls are
>>>>>>>>> bad (i.e. people who just don't like the food, or the atmosphere, or
>>>>>>>>> whatever else about it) or the system is unfair (i.e. FSILGs and
>>>>>>>>> people who pay the dining hall fee but don't use the dining hall
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> that
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> much).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Having heard the same arguments over and over again, I've come to
>>>>>>>>> think that the persistent problem plaguing campus dining is that
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> when
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> it comes to food, everyone has different preferences and no one
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> system
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> is going to satisfy everyone, and yet if it doesn't satisfy
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> everyone,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> people will complain. People like to cook meals or buy them
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> prepared,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> eat alone or in groups, sit down and have a meal or grab
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> something on
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> their way to lab. That's not even getting into actual food
>>>>>>>>> preferences. Just about every dining facility I've ever seen on any
>>>>>>>>> campus has been panned for having terrible food, and yet there are
>>>>>>>>> always some people who will eat there all the time. People are
>>>>>>>>> probably more selective when it comes to food than almost anything
>>>>>>>>> else. Unlike restaurants, that can cater to different tastes,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> campus
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> dining tends to aim towards the lowest common demonimator. As a
>>>>>>>>> result, hardly anyone is bound to praise it, while those who aren't
>>>>>>>>> satisfied will be compelled to complain. You could always try to
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> make
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> it better by providing more options, but the more you do that the
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> more
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> you have to pay, and where does the money come from? (answer:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> usually
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> it comes out of students' pockets, one way or another, until someone
>>>>>>>>> comes up with a better option ...)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I doubt any of this was helpful but maybe it provided some food for
>>>>>>>>> thought. Ha! Get it? Ughh.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Jeff (who realizes that I need a "non pretentious" filter more
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> than anyone
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ...)
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> MIT-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>> MIT-talk@mit.edu
>>>>>>>>> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/mit-talk
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
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