[2045] in Discussion of MIT-community interests
Re: [Mit-talk] [UA-SCATR] New Card initiative
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Jeff Roberts)
Sat Jul 8 22:58:40 2006
Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2006 22:58:17 -0400
From: "Jeff Roberts" <thejoker@alum.mit.edu>
To: faber@alum.mit.edu
In-Reply-To: <e9cc53d60607070803r5bbadbdeg55f9a8d11633b052@mail.gmail.com>
Cc: mit-talk@mit.edu
Errors-To: mit-talk-bounces@mit.edu
As always I'm impressed by the opinions and observations here ...
I only have to observe that the argument for having a more
market-driven type of food service system, that operates without any
subsidy or mandatory up-front payment, is a very thoughtful and
reasonable one, in theory. Unfortunately, no provider has been able
to make it work -- or perhaps has never really been willing to try. I
think that students who are interested enough in this (not you and me,
Jacob, unfortunately we're too old for this) need to ask the right
questions in order to figure out why.
Also, whatever you like or dislike about different dining programs,
I'd be wary about criticizing them as "social engineering" attempts.
In the same vein, the floor/suite/kitchen system that many people like
might be described as the result of a social engineering experiment
(read the Faculty Housing Committee report of 1963 -- I'm pretty sure
it's in the Institute Archives). Faculty and administrators often
have, and will probably continue to, make changes that affect the
overall student experience -- the important question is whether you
think they will be for better or for worse. That's all from me --
Jeff
On 7/7/06, Jacob Faber <faber@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
> Jessica,
> I completely agree that social engineering is a huge part of this, as
> well as many other MIT policies. I'm not surprised to hear what you
> said before about the ideals of those who sit in the planning meetings
> for dining. Unfortunately, many admins have their social engineering
> plans for MIT "kids", which show their face everywhere =96
> dorm/frat/sorority rush for example. My experience is that most of
> these decisions are made by people who are so appallingly uneducated
> about the students they are "helping". And we do have to keep that in
> mind: that most of these changes are made to by people who honestly
> think they are helping us. This point is at the same time promising
> and terrifying.
> -j
>
> On 7/7/06, Jessica H Lowell <jessiehl@mit.edu> wrote:
> > Personally, I wasn't sure whether to be amused or appalled by some of t=
he
> > related McCormick dining hall initatives, like the "Meet New People"
> > table with
> > the "conversation starter" cards to fill out.
> >
> > Jacob, I think the problem is that it's not just an issue of financial
> > feasibility, it's an issue of social engineering. Some people are unde=
r the
> > impression that if the students aren't eating together in the dining ha=
ll,
> > they're being lonely and antisocial in their rooms, and therefore that =
it's
> > necessary to make them eat in the dining hall for the sake of community.
> >
> > From the 11/18/05 issue of the Tech:
> >
> > "[McCormick housemaster Charles] Stewart said he has not heard ?a singl=
e valid
> > argument? against the no-styrofoam policy. ?If students are in a hurry,=
they
> > have zillions of options elsewhere on campus.? He said the time that it=
takes
> > to wait in line for food preparation and checkout and the time walking =
back up
> > a room is no more than it would take to eat a meal in the hall with the
> > rest of
> > the McCormick community. ?We are trying to create a sense of community
> > here.?
> >
> > Stewart said he would encourage other houses to adopt similar policies.=
?The
> > benefits of community dining are so great, and MIT recognizes this. Oth=
erwise,
> > we should close down these expensive dining halls as we cannot justify
> > the cost
> > of them as only being a means of providing food,? he said."
> >
> > - Jessie
> >
> > Quoting Cathy Zhang <zhangc@MIT.EDU>:
> >
> > > Wow...the no-takeout policy seems rather much for me. In Simmons, we'=
re
> > > allowed to take any dining hall food upstairs, even if it's on one of
> > > their plates, as long as we return it (although sometimes people retu=
rn
> > > plates only after their four years), and we're always allowed the opt=
ion
> > > of takeout boxes.
> > >
> > > -Cathy
> > >
> > > Jacob Faber wrote:
> > >> Jeff,
> > >> I think your point about the fact that a whole community will never
> > >> agree is right on. I loved eating in Baker with my friends, and it
> > >> was a great way to bring the community together. What people are
> > >> upset about is the idea of being forced to eat in your dorm (or
> > >> anywhere for that matter).
> > >>
> > >> Financial feasibility of a dorm-based dining hall is not a stand-alo=
ne
> > >> justification for forcing the community to subsidize. Why can't they
> > >> offer good food at a price that will attract enough customers to be
> > >> viable?
> > >>
> > >> I am completely shocked by that "no takeout" policy and am curious as
> > >> to whether or not it is still in effect.
> > >>
> > >> -j
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> On 7/7/06, Steven M Kelch <kelch@mit.edu> wrote:
> > >>> To add a little to what Jenn said:
> > >>>
> > >>> The "no take-out" rule was put into place by the housemaster, and n=
ot by
> > >>> campus dining. I believe that they have started putting takeout tra=
ys
> > >>> back
> > >>> in, but someone correct me if I'm wrong.
> > >>>
> > >>> skelch
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> On Fri, 7 Jul 2006, Cathy Zhang wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>> > Could someone explain what happened at McCormick, about these
> > >>> "take-out
> > >>> > options" that were eliminated, etc? I'm in Simmons, so I've heard
> > >>> about
> > >>> > dining hall issues, but I've never heard about people not being
> > >>> allowed to
> > >>> > eat anywhere other than the dining hall...??
> > >>> >
> > >>> > -Cathy
> > >>> >
> > >>> > Jessica H Lowell wrote:
> > >>> >> I don't think many people are opposed to dining halls themselves=
on
> > >>> >> principle. The problem is that, for both financial feasibility
> > >>> reasons and
> > >>> >> social
> > >>> >> engineering reasons, dining halls are made mandatory. Of course,
> > >>> this is
> > >>> >> something for incoming freshmen to consider when they're choosing
> > >>> a dorm,
> > >>> >> but
> > >>> >> there are still concerns, and problems. Jeff, you lived in the =
dorms
> > >>> >> before
> > >>> >> Freshmen on Campus; the problem of FSILG frosh forced to choose
> > >>> between
> > >>> >> losing
> > >>> >> money on their forced meal plan or losing valuable bonding time
> > >>> with their
> > >>> >> house didn't exist then to nearly the extent it does now.
> > >>> Whenever someone
> > >>> >> comments on "dining halls", they're also commenting on the typic=
al
> > >>> >> implications
> > >>> >> of dining halls on the MIT campus.
> > >>> >>
> > >>> >> From what I've heard about the situation in McCormick, from
> > >>> McCormick
> > >>> >> residents
> > >>> >> and others, Grace's comments about it are pretty on target. I b=
et
> > >>> that
> > >>> >> even
> > >>> >> those who originally supported the dining hall there didn't fors=
ee
> > >>> that in
> > >>> >> the
> > >>> >> future take-out options would be eliminated to force people to e=
at
> > >>> on site.
> > >>> >>
> > >>> >> - Jessie
> > >>> >>
> > >>> >> Quoting Jeff Roberts <thejoker@alum.mit.edu>:
> > >>> >>
> > >>> >>
> > >>> >>> On 7/3/06, grace <gkenney@mit.edu> wrote:
> > >>> >>>
> > >>> >>>
> > >>> >>>> finally, the reinstitution of dining halls is recent, and it's
> > >>> been more
> > >>> >>>> or less a top-down thing [witness attempts in mccormick to _fo=
rce_
> > >>> >>>> students to eat there.] in general, they haven't been an
> > >>> expression of
> > >>> >>>> dorm culture - in places where dining is part of the culture, =
it's
> > >>> >>>> generally the result of halls and suites having their own
> > >>> kitchens. the
> > >>> >>>> imposition of a dining hall [along with a mandatory mealplan f=
or
> > >>> the dorm
> > >>> >>>> to ensure that it's actually used] is often a way to limit,
> > >>> rather than
> > >>> >>>> increase student dining choices.
> > >>> >>>>
> > >>> >>> I've enjoyed reading this discussion and was going to stay out =
of it
> > >>> >>> but this comment sort-of struck a nerve. I'd argue that reside=
ntial
> > >>> >>> dining halls do contribute to culture in a comparable way to
> > >>> >>> hall/suite cooking; I lived in a dorm with an active dining hal=
l and
> > >>> >>> it was an important part of my social experience and a major pa=
rt of
> > >>> >>> life of the dorm. Maybe most of the people on mit-talk have a
> > >>> >>> different experience with dining -- after all, only 3 (now 4 I
> > >>> guess)
> > >>> >>> of the 11 dorms have dining halls -- but I hope you recognize t=
hat
> > >>> >>> different dining experiences can contribute to different types =
of
> > >>> >>> culture in different ways, and they aren't necessarily better or
> > >>> >>> worse.
> > >>> >>>
> > >>> >>> I'd guess that a lot of alums and students feel the same way I
> > >>> do, but
> > >>> >>> you're more likely to hear from those who feel that dining hall=
s are
> > >>> >>> bad (i.e. people who just don't like the food, or the atmospher=
e, or
> > >>> >>> whatever else about it) or the system is unfair (i.e. FSILGs and
> > >>> >>> people who pay the dining hall fee but don't use the dining hall
> > >>> that
> > >>> >>> much).
> > >>> >>>
> > >>> >>> Having heard the same arguments over and over again, I've come =
to
> > >>> >>> think that the persistent problem plaguing campus dining is that
> > >>> when
> > >>> >>> it comes to food, everyone has different preferences and no one
> > >>> system
> > >>> >>> is going to satisfy everyone, and yet if it doesn't satisfy
> > >>> everyone,
> > >>> >>> people will complain. People like to cook meals or buy them
> > >>> prepared,
> > >>> >>> eat alone or in groups, sit down and have a meal or grab
> > >>> something on
> > >>> >>> their way to lab. That's not even getting into actual food
> > >>> >>> preferences. Just about every dining facility I've ever seen o=
n any
> > >>> >>> campus has been panned for having terrible food, and yet there =
are
> > >>> >>> always some people who will eat there all the time. People are
> > >>> >>> probably more selective when it comes to food than almost anyth=
ing
> > >>> >>> else. Unlike restaurants, that can cater to different tastes,
> > >>> campus
> > >>> >>> dining tends to aim towards the lowest common demonimator. As a
> > >>> >>> result, hardly anyone is bound to praise it, while those who ar=
en't
> > >>> >>> satisfied will be compelled to complain. You could always try =
to
> > >>> make
> > >>> >>> it better by providing more options, but the more you do that t=
he
> > >>> more
> > >>> >>> you have to pay, and where does the money come from? (answer:
> > >>> usually
> > >>> >>> it comes out of students' pockets, one way or another, until so=
meone
> > >>> >>> comes up with a better option ...)
> > >>> >>>
> > >>> >>> I doubt any of this was helpful but maybe it provided some food=
for
> > >>> >>> thought. Ha! Get it? Ughh.
> > >>> >>>
> > >>> >>> Jeff (who realizes that I need a "non pretentious" filter more
> > >>> than anyone
> > >>> >>> ...)
> > >>> >>> _______________________________________________
> > >>> >>> MIT-talk mailing list
> > >>> >>> MIT-talk@mit.edu
> > >>> >>> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/mit-talk
> > >>> >>>
> > >>> >>>
> > >>> >>
> > >>> >>
> > >>> >> _______________________________________________
> > >>> >> MIT-talk mailing list
> > >>> >> MIT-talk@mit.edu
> > >>> >> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/mit-talk
> > >>> >>
> > >>> _______________________________________________
> > >>> MIT-talk mailing list
> > >>> MIT-talk@mit.edu
> > >>> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/mit-talk
> > >>>
> > >>
> > >>
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > MIT-talk mailing list
> > > MIT-talk@mit.edu
> > > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/mit-talk
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Jacob W. Faber
> Phone: 857.928.2838
>
> _______________________________________________
> MIT-talk mailing list
> MIT-talk@mit.edu
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/mit-talk
>
-- =
Pittsfield's Pride
pittsfieldspride.blogspot.com
_______________________________________________
MIT-talk mailing list
MIT-talk@mit.edu
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/mit-talk
