[847] in cryptography@c2.net mail archive
Re: SAFE vote and cutting crypto-deals, report from House J
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Black Unicorn)
Thu May 15 17:54:04 1997
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 16:55:47 -0400 (EDT)
From: Black Unicorn <unicorn@schloss.li>
To: Marc Horowitz <marc@cygnus.com>
cc: trei@process.com, Phil Helms <phil@cccs.cccoes.edu>, cryptography@c2.net,
trei@c2.net
In-Reply-To: <t533erocvjf.fsf@rover.cygnus.com>
On 15 May 1997, Marc Horowitz wrote:
> Black Unicorn <unicorn@schloss.li> writes:
>
> >> Defendant goes to a payphone because he/she expects the cops are watching
> >> him. Payphone happens to be encrypted. Show me a court that will buy the
> >> argument he didn't know it was encrypted.
>
> You only have to convince the jury. My experience indicates that the
> jurors won't know what crypto is, nor where it can be found. It's a
> poor defense lawyer who can't get you off of this.
Disagree strongly.
"Knowingly and Willingly" cannot be proven. It can only be implied. Its
the same thing as being found in "possession" of narcotics. Technically,
if you didn't know the drugs were in your car, you're not in possession.
If it's not your car, and you didn't know the drugs were in it, you're not
in possession.
Now:
1. Tell a judge/jury/cop that you didn't know.
2. Observe results.
3. Report findings from prison.
> >> > >> "Yes, we know that when you scanned Miss November onto your hard
> >> > >> drive, it was only a misdemeanor copyright enfringement, but since
> >> > >> your HD is factory shipped with a sector level encryption system,
> >> > >> we're sending you up the river for 5 years."
> >> >
> >> > "under a criminal statute". copyright infringement of this sort is
> >> > civil.
> >>
> >> There can be federal criminal liability for e.g., EPA violations, (dry
> >> cleaners which encrypts its financials is at some risk here).
>
> Peter didn't mention EPA violations. He mentioned copyright
> infringement of a sort which is clearly civil in nature.
Not to speak for him, but I believe his point was that a wide range of
offenses that would seem unrelated to crypto suddenly trigger crypto-crime
reactions.
> >> > >> To crypto enthusiasts, this provision is equivalent to adding 5 years
> >> > >> to the sentence if you were breathing at the time the crime was
> >> > >> committed.
> >> >
> >> > If I, as a crypto enthusiast, think that your arguments are this
> >> > absurd, you have no chance at all of convincing the people you need to
> >> > convince. Please come up with a straw man which doesn't explode when
> >> > light falls on it.
> >>
> >> It's deeper than that. You may be a legal literalist (so am I) but not
> >> all courts are, and VERY few juries are.
>
> Agreed. I'm not convinced that the new wording is good law (and am
> becoming more unconvinced), but argument's like Peter's don't help.
> My real point is that spewing without thinking only helps the enemy,
> because it makes you look irrational, even if you are also right.
We seem to disagree on very little then.
>
> Marc
>
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