[148643] in cryptography@c2.net mail archive

home help back first fref pref prev next nref lref last post

Re: [Cryptography] What do we know? (Was 'We cannot trust' ...)

daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Jerry Leichter)
Mon Dec 23 18:16:26 2013

X-Original-To: cryptography@metzdowd.com
From: Jerry Leichter <leichter@lrw.com>
In-Reply-To: <52B809D8.9050907@echeque.com>
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2013 11:13:21 -0500
To: jamesd@echeque.com
Cc: cryptography@metzdowd.com
Errors-To: cryptography-bounces+crypto.discuss=bloom-picayune.mit.edu@metzdowd.com


--===============4053269893829285913==
Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_94CB3A45-851F-4226-8297-9CB932B8CFC0"; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1


--Apple-Mail=_94CB3A45-851F-4226-8297-9CB932B8CFC0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset=us-ascii

On Dec 23, 2013, at 5:00 AM, "James A. Donald" <jamesd@echeque.com> =
wrote:

> On 2013-12-22 15:05, Jerry Leichter wrote:
> > Nothing I've seen so far describes what the $10M actually paid for.
> > So nothing is inconsistent with the possibility that what RSA saw
> > was a $10M contract to provide BSAFE to some government agency -
> But what RSA did was provide backdoored BSAFE to everyone, not just =
one government agency.
Well ... yes, that's the way commercial software works.  Everyone buys =
the same thing.  The government is certainly able to demand special =
configurations for itself, but those come with increased costs.  That's =
where you get the famous $700 toilet seats.  In this century, many of =
them want "COTS" - Commercial Off The Shelf.

And that, of course, is what makes the NSA game here effective.

> "Here is ten million dollars to make *other* people use our algorithm"
No, here's ten million in licensing fees - just make this one tiny =
change to keep our security auditors happy.

Do you know the history of auto-ranging power supplies?  Prior to the =
late 1970's or so, power supplies were analogue beasts and typically =
came in 120 and 240 volt AC versions, with different attached power =
cords, for the US and much of Europe.  Carrying two different versions =
of the same thing was expensive.  As power supplies became more =
sophisticated, adding a switch to change the voltage became common - =
especially after the IEC standardize on an equipment-end plug.  So now =
you could produce one product for the whole world, just shipping a =
different local-plug-to-IEC-jack cable, and assuming that the end user =
would set the switch correctly.  Sounds great - but what's the default =
setting for the switch?  At least in the computer industry - dominated =
by US manufacturers at the time - it was clearly 120V.  Then local =
governments elsewhere - I think the Germans were the first - started to =
say "No, you don't get to set the default the way *you* like it; you =
sell in Germany, you configure your device *for Germany* out of the =
box."  I was at Digital at the time, and it was an open joke that =
devices were built and configured in the US, packed in boxes, shipped to =
Germany - where someone opened the box, changed the switch to 240V, =
resealed the box, and sent it to the customer.  While cheaper than =
maintaining two separate product lines, it was an expense and a pain.

What eventually happened was that digital, auto-ranging power supplies =
took over, and unless you're working with high-power stuff, you just =
plug it in and everything works.  One product for the whole world, no =
configuration required.

That's how governments - and, BTW, all big customers - work.  Do it my =
way, for the convenience of my users, or get lost.

> "That is the algorithm that various noted cryptographers say smells
> mighty funny?
In 2004?

The issues were raised a couple of years later, and I think it's =
legitimate to ask whether RSA should have changed things then.  But =
changing a default based on what a couple of academics are saying - =
which is how it would have been seen - is not an easy move.  Academics =
are *always* complaining about something - that's what they're =
*supposed* to do, raise questions.  Until Snowdonia, there was certainly =
a smell, but there was nothing that approached solid evidence.

In any case, as others have pointed out here:  Until Snowdonia, the =
general attitude of  big business - the customers for BSAFE - would have =
been "I don't care that the NSA can read my stuff, they're the good =
guys, they don't get involved in commerce, I have nothing to hide from =
them."

                                                        -- Jerry


--Apple-Mail=_94CB3A45-851F-4226-8297-9CB932B8CFC0
Content-Disposition: attachment;
	filename=smime.p7s
Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature;
	name=smime.p7s
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
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--Apple-Mail=_94CB3A45-851F-4226-8297-9CB932B8CFC0--

--===============4053269893829285913==
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline

_______________________________________________
The cryptography mailing list
cryptography@metzdowd.com
http://www.metzdowd.com/mailman/listinfo/cryptography
--===============4053269893829285913==--

home help back first fref pref prev next nref lref last post