[149247] in cryptography@c2.net mail archive
Re: [Cryptography] Angry Cryptographers...
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Joshua Marpet)
Tue Jan 28 16:58:19 2014
X-Original-To: cryptography@metzdowd.com
In-Reply-To: <CADkMHC=4QGdQVXDxxMg-88AT+DTEv0kn-XSyx3pYyDhH8Tu+9Q@mail.gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2014 16:45:24 -0500
From: Joshua Marpet <joshua.marpet@guardedrisk.com>
To: RB <aoz.syn@gmail.com>
Cc: "cryptography@metzdowd.com" <cryptography@metzdowd.com>,
Phillip Hallam-Baker <hallam@gmail.com>
Errors-To: cryptography-bounces+crypto.discuss=bloom-picayune.mit.edu@metzdowd.com
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Now you are getting philosophical, sirs. Now I think I can chime in.
People are enraged by the concept of being spied on. "Privacy!" is their
battlecry, their watchword, their need. Is it their right?
Ah! Now we hit upon the meat of the matter. Is privacy a "right"?
Is it a right ordained by God, or obtained from man (and woman)? Is it a
right at all, inalienable or otherwise?
Not being a lawyer, I will say that it depends. It depends on which
country you are in, which regime you are living under, what you believe,
and what your government believes.
Plus, it also depends on the needs of the many. I'm an ex-cop. When
someone is in jail, we watched them in the shower, on the toilet, in bed,
playing cards or watching TV. They had any right to privacy stripped from
them, as they were deemed criminals, and unable to supervise themselves.
We supervised them as parents. This is to protect the many (the public)
from the few (criminals).
But we also did that to people in holding, and in pretrial detention. They
were not accorded due process to strip them of this "right", and yet they
were denied it. They were innocent (unless and until proven guilty). Is
this stripping of privacy legal? Again, not being a lawyer, I don't know.
Do we have privacy when we have kids? Good lord, kids walk into bedrooms
and bathrooms all the time! Do we voluntarily give up some privacy when we
get a significant other? Should this be regulated?
In certain countries, women don't have the right to drive. Do we rise up
and declaim this sexist behavior? No, really. Did you? Why not? You're
so concerned with some illusive "right" but you won't shout and scream
about the Sudan, human trafficking, or other injustices? "But, this issue
matters to me!"
Ok. Now it's an issue. So you want this issue of privacy to be decided.
Is it a right? Should it be something you pay for, or take for granted?
I see many people wanting to take it for granted. Buggy whip makers took
their market for granted. Look where it got them.
I suppose I'm rambling, and should probably shut up. My point is that
"Privacy" is a complex and misunderstood thing. My best comparison is to
that of "Quality" from Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance. Or
"Obscenity". " I can't define it, but I'll know it when I see it."
Sorry for rambling. I think we take privacy for granted, and forget it's
something we each define for ourselves. It's different for me than it is
for you. Privacy is important. We need to know what we need to fight for,
before we start getting aggrieved about it.
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<div dir=3D"ltr">Now you are getting philosophical, sirs. =A0Now I think I =
can chime in.<div><br></div><div>People are enraged by the concept of being=
spied on. =A0"Privacy!" is their battlecry, their watchword, the=
ir need. =A0Is it their right?</div>
<div><br></div><div>Ah! =A0Now we hit upon the meat of the matter. =A0Is pr=
ivacy a "right"? =A0</div><div><br></div><div>Is it a right ordai=
ned by God, or obtained from man (and woman)? =A0Is it a right at all, inal=
ienable or otherwise?</div>
<div><br></div><div>Not being a lawyer, I will say that it depends. =A0It d=
epends on which country you are in, which regime you are living under, what=
you believe, and what your government believes. =A0</div><div><br></div><d=
iv>
Plus, it also depends on the needs of the many. =A0I'm an ex-cop. =A0Wh=
en someone is in jail, we watched them in the shower, on the toilet, in bed=
, playing cards or watching TV. =A0They had any right to privacy stripped f=
rom them, as they were deemed criminals, and unable to supervise themselves=
. =A0We supervised them as parents. =A0This is to protect the many (the pub=
lic) from the few (criminals). =A0</div>
<div><br></div><div>But we also did that to people in holding, and in pretr=
ial detention. =A0They were not accorded due process to strip them of this =
"right", and yet they were denied it. =A0They were innocent (unle=
ss and until proven guilty). Is this stripping of privacy legal? =A0Again, =
not being a lawyer, I don't know. =A0</div>
<div><br></div><div>Do we have privacy when we have kids? =A0Good lord, kid=
s walk into bedrooms and bathrooms all the time! =A0Do we voluntarily give =
up some privacy when we get a significant other? =A0 Should this be regulat=
ed? =A0</div>
<div><br></div><div>In certain countries, women don't have the right to=
drive. =A0Do we rise up and declaim this sexist behavior? =A0No, really. =
=A0Did you? =A0Why not? =A0You're so concerned with some illusive "=
;right" but you won't shout and scream about the Sudan, human traf=
ficking, or other injustices? =A0"But, this issue matters to me!"=
</div>
<div><br></div><div>Ok. Now it's an issue. =A0So you want this issue of=
privacy to be decided. =A0Is it a right? =A0Should it be something you pay=
for, or take for granted? =A0I see many people wanting to take it for gran=
ted. =A0Buggy whip makers took their market for granted. =A0Look where it g=
ot them.</div>
<div><br></div><div>I suppose I'm rambling, and should probably shut up=
. =A0My point is that "Privacy" is a complex and misunderstood th=
ing. =A0My best comparison is to that of "Quality" from Zen and t=
he Art of Motorcycle Maintenance. =A0Or "Obscenity". " I can=
't define it, but I'll know it when I see it."</div>
<div><br></div><div>Sorry for rambling. =A0I think we take privacy for gran=
ted, and forget it's something we each define for ourselves. =A0It'=
s different for me than it is for you. =A0Privacy is important. =A0We need =
to know what we need to fight for, before we start getting aggrieved about =
it.</div>
</div>
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